Curse

draxynnic · Mar 08, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

More buffs is NOT what is needed. PvE is incredibly easy as it is with whatever class you prefer to play. What is needed is more nerfs to the overpowered skills. That being said, I really dont see paragons as being "weak" in PvE. Maybe they can't kill as fast, give energy, damage increases, or heal as other professions... but so what? Paragons are not intended to be a flexible class. Paragons are meant to SY. If you would prefer play the role of a monk, than choose another profession. Paragons do not need buffs to their healing skills because their SY spamming skills are plenty powerful enough.

This is like saying Mesmers are meant to be assassin spammers. Maybe not quite so bad, as a SY paragon is at least in the same general ballpark of the role they were intended to fulfill, but a profession shouldn't have to rely on PvE skills (especially belonging to another profession) to be effective.

However, I don't think this is the way to improve Motivation - the Paragon is, on the whole, supposed to be a profession that is based around buffing the whole party, and this suggestion is basically just an attempt to make them a Monk-clone (as well as completely destroying the naming system of Paragon chants). If I was in charge of improving Motivation, I think I'd probably focus on improving the battery aspects of the profession so that a Motivation Paragon could effectively serve as a party battery while providing additional support through party heals (which could probably stand being reverted to their 2007 power in PvE), conditions, and/or the capabilities provided by Leadership and Spear Mastery.

kazjun · Mar 08, 2010, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Not sure about the numbers, but motivation does need a buff. Or at least in pve, cause buffing for pvp will just end up with the multi para mega defense hold teams again. You could go a long way just reducing recharges. Most heals take forever to recharge to the point that no pve para should carry them. Leading to paras just taking SY, TNTF and ToF and leaving redbarring to monks, emos and N/Rts. Still, don't see anet buffing para's any time soon considering nearly every skill change usually nerfs paras someway...

MagmaRed · Mar 08, 2010, 05:50 AM // 05:50

We have Monk and Rit able to run as PRIMARY healers. We do not need another healing class, especially one with 80AL armor. Support healing is not bad from Paragon, although it could use a little help. But turning Paragon into another healer is just a bad idea.

jazilla · Mar 08, 2010, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I can't even imagine how hard it would be for vanquishers in NF if you were in charge of this game. I think that the motivation line is awful, but what you are proposing is way too good to actually see the light of day. Also, I believe that Dervs/Mesmers are next in line and then ranger spirits.
/notsigned.

drkn · Mar 08, 2010, 11:37 AM // 11:37

now i see that you're insane and have no idea about the game, even though your general intentions are good.

Archress Shayleigh · Mar 08, 2010, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The numbers can be changed. I only threw some out there similar to the ones found on ritualist resto skills, but they can be changed. You do have to remember, however, that with 2 pips of energy regeneration, paragons would have to have some way of making their skills cheaper without making it abusable by other professions. In fact, if you notice, the numbers from #1 and #2 were taken strait from MB&S and Wielder's boon, and i figured the fact that they were cheap would be counterbalanced by the fact that other skills would be required to manage the energy and that paragons have only 2 pips of regeneration. But like i said, the numbers can be adjusted.

With low energy-fast casting-fast recharging heals as strong as rit heals, and with a base 80 AL why would anyone want a healer rit? Just, no.

Desert Rose · Mar 08, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Well, after further contemplation about the paragon I came to the conclusion that even a reducement to the range of paragon shouts/chants wouldn't help.
You either make them powerful enough to be useful in a normal team they would be overpowered in healing ball-like builds with multiple paragons, make them balanced for healing ball-like builds, but then they would still be useless in normal team builds, or make them even to weak for healing ball-like builds, but then noone would use them and we're at once again at the starting point. None of the possibilities are desirable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Maybe not quite so bad, as a SY paragon is at least in the same general ballpark of the role they were intended to fulfill, but a profession shouldn't have to rely on PvE skills (especially belonging to another profession) to be effective.

Paragons are very effective in PvE already, and has quite a few powerful builds. The reason why you don't see rarely a non-imbagon paragon is because it's far more powerful than any other build. Nerfing SY will increase the number of builds a paragon can use because all those builds are no longer overshadowed by the imbagon.

Lanier · Mar 08, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

wow... i wasnt quite expecting this much negative feedback but w/e, its no big deal. I still dont think reducing the recharge of the party healing spells would help, so maybe just turn motivation into a primarily condition removal/battery attribute, like someone else further up in this thread suggested. I am curious though, do you guys think the suggestion is overpowered because of over-the-top energy management or because of the size of the numbers?

Quote:

I can't even imagine how hard it would be for vanquishers in NF if you were in charge of this game.

I wouldnt think a group with a motivation paragon would be any more powerful than a group with a healing monk. A monks healing power would still be more powerful than that of a motivationgon, expecially considering that most motivationgons in PvE only contain around one of the three direct heals i suggested.

Quote:

now i see that you're insane and have no idea about the game, even though your general intentions are good.

Really now... if you are going to insult me, at least tell me why. You could at least tell me why you think my suggestions are overpowered rather than just stating that i am "insane and have no idea about the game".

Quote:

Nerfing SY will increase the number of builds a paragon can use because all those builds are no longer overshadowed by the imbagon.

Im not so sure about that. I would think that nerfing SY will only make other builds more viable for paragons, but will not make the motivation attribute any more powerful. I could be wrong of course, and I for one would really like to see SY nerfed.

So I guess my question now is how would you guys buff the motivation line? I dont see reducing the recharges of the current healing skills as making them any more appealing considering the conditionality of the chants and they fact that they have to be activated by the other party members rather than taking place immediatly. So how would you guys go about making the motivation line useful?

Shayne Hawke · Mar 08, 2010, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Giving paragons the option to heal wouldnt make them any more powerful offensively.

And giving monks the option to damage wouldn't make them any more powerful defensively, so that's okay, right?

Whoops.

Lanier · Mar 08, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

And giving monks the option to damage wouldn't make them any more powerful defensively, so that's okay, right?

Whoops.

what? thats completely irrelevant.

A. Smiter's boon didnt increase a monk's damage output at all. It only made their damaging skills better by giving them more of a health gain.

B. I was (previously, before all of the negative feedback) not suggesting making paragon's heals do damage as well. The strength of smiter's boon was that it made it so that all of the damaging skills healed as well. I was certainly not advocating for the paragon's damaging skills to be able to heal.

once again, any ideas on who you guys would buff the motivation line? Is it a viable idea to give paragons an increased (beyond signet of synergy) capability to target heal rather than just provide party healing support?

Desert Rose · Mar 08, 2010, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Im not so sure about that. I would think that nerfing SY will only make other builds more viable for paragons, but will not make the motivation attribute any more powerful. I could be wrong of course, and I for one would really like to see SY nerfed.

I've never specified nerfing SY would make motigons more powerful; but on the other hand it is possible that due to a nerf to SY "The Power Is Yours!" and Song of Purification motigons see more play again.

Quote:

So I guess my question now is how would you guys buff the motivation line?

Hot fix: Revert the PvE versions of nerfed skills.
More thought-out fix: Give motivation skills a controlable, but not obsolete conditional, e.g. affects all party members currently attacking, affects all party members currently casting a spell, affects all party members with less than 75% health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

B. I was (previously, before all of the negative feedback) not suggesting making paragon's heals do damage as well. The strength of smiter's boon was that it made it so that all of the damaging skills healed as well. I was certainly not advocating for the paragon's damaging skills to be able to heal.

I guess what Shayne Hawke is trying to say: A Smiter's Boon monk wasn't able to heal/prot better than a normal monk, and it wasn't able to deal as much damage as a normal midline character, but 4-5 Smiter's Boon monks were able to heal/prot better and deal more damage than most other profession combinations.
If your suggestions getting implemented, what will prevent paragons from creating a leadership/spear/motivation-build with 1-2 spike skills, 1-2 leadership skills and the rest motivation heal skills and becoming the new Smiter's Boon monk?

drkn · Mar 09, 2010, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Really now... if you are going to insult me, at least tell me why. You could at least tell me why you think my suggestions are overpowered rather than just stating that i am "insane and have no idea about the game".

just read the topic, others said it clearly. didn't want to repeat myself.
tl;dr: you want to make an overpowered healer+protector+damager from para. don't think they were designed this way (same as mesmers weren't designed for damage - see?). paragons should be neither healers or protectors to that extent - those roles are taken already. they should be inspirators, party buffers, pumping damage, improving speed (both movement and attack), making others to gain adrenaline easier; just think about a charismatic leader of a group.
nice changes would be to improve their role of a party leader. an echo "Don't worry!" that halves the duration of hexes cast on ally being under the echo would be cool, or a party-wide elite shout doing the same. it's just a quick idea - there are endless possibilities to buff/rework paragons within their role and lore.
still, healers are already there. paras have motivation, not 'healingation'.

draxynnic · Mar 09, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Paragons are very effective in PvE already, and has quite a few powerful builds. The reason why you don't see rarely a non-imbagon paragon is because it's far more powerful than any other build. Nerfing SY will increase the number of builds a paragon can use because all those builds are no longer overshadowed by the imbagon.

There is some truth in this - there is some good stuff that doesn't see the light of day because it doesn't synergise well with the imbagon (and because it was buffed post-imbagon). Not much of that is in Motivation, though.

Lanier · Mar 09, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

just read the topic, others said it clearly. didn't want to repeat myself.
tl;dr: you want to make an overpowered healer+protector+damager from para. don't think they were designed this way (same as mesmers weren't designed for damage - see?). paragons should be neither healers or protectors to that extent - those roles are taken already. they should be inspirators, party buffers, pumping damage, improving speed (both movement and attack), making others to gain adrenaline easier; just think about a charismatic leader of a group.
nice changes would be to improve their role of a party leader. an echo "Don't worry!" that halves the duration of hexes cast on ally being under the echo would be cool, or a party-wide elite shout doing the same. it's just a quick idea - there are endless possibilities to buff/rework paragons within their role and lore.
still, healers are already there. paras have motivation, not 'healingation'.

Uh, most of the motivation line is healing skills. You are saying that Anet didnt design paragons to be able to heal when they gave them a line full of healing skills? Regardless, I didnt originally think my idea was overpowered as the healing wasnt any more powerful than the rit's healing and the energy management wouldnt be overpowered because of the para's poor energy regen (and, like i said, the numbers could always be adjusted downward). I would say that making a paragon's healing capabilities useable is definitely staying within their role.

I kind of like the idea of that shout that would reduce the duration of hexes on allies though. I think it would be a good change to hexbreaker's aria, making that chant useable in any type of group rather than only being useable in a caster heavy group.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 09, 2010, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I would like to see the motivation chants that heal have a more general use, have a smaller AoE range (Nearby?In-The-Area?), and be a -bit- more potent and a lower recharge.

The trouble with the motivation line in PvE is the specifications of certain skills.

Not all Heroes, Henchies, players, ect, have Signets (Lyric of Resto/Zeal) . some classes don't cast spells (Aria of Resto/Zeal), making it a very unreliable party-wide heal. Ballad of Restoration is good, although effectively a party wide RoF and isn't really worth the recharge tagged onto it. Song of Restoration is pretty much a slightly better LoD with 3.5x the recharge.

Purifying and Energizing Finale are too weird in function, because it takes too long to cast it, then some shout/chant to put it into effect. Maybe if it Removed a condition/gave energy on cast, then had the effect they do now it'd be more universally useful...

"It's Just a Flesh Wound.", and "The Power Is Yours!" just suck too.

So, yeah, motivation is pretty useless, and needs a buff... but making paragons a monk with 80 AL isn't the way to do it.

drkn · Mar 10, 2010, 11:17 AM // 11:17

@L
the fact that most mesmer skills deal damage doesn't mean that they are a damaging class. chaos storm, various interrupts, energy denial skills, energy burning skills, shame... conditions induced by skills cause damage or degen... and there's a lot of degen which - although indirect - is damage. so, mesmer = damager? even if playing a mes as a damager is one's best option to use, it should be changed as mes wasn't designed to nuke.
i don't know all motivation skills by heart, but if it's true that most of them heal allies rather than give them various buffs and indirect defence, then something's wrong. the fact that devs gave paras some weak heals doesn't mean that fixing the class can be done by overbuffing them - rather by changing them completely into motivation, as we have enough healers.

Tenebrae · Mar 10, 2010, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

"It's Just a Flesh Wound.", and "The Power Is Yours!" just suck too.

So, yeah, motivation is pretty useless, and needs a buff... but making paragons a monk with 80 AL isn't the way to do it.

Wrong. IJAFW is a bloody impressive cond removal , you can use it with almost no points in motiv and use prots elite for something else useful , as long as any other cond removal skill in your prot hero by adding foul feast to your N .

If TPIY added 1..2..3 energy regen to all party members in earshot range it would be a "free" battery , overpowered.

They dont suck , but they are not the omfgwtfpwn either . You ppl gotta stop thinking that not bad = suck , seriously.

Just remove some god damn casting times and shorten almost all recharges by 30% ( at least in pve ) and moti will be "ok" .

Akimb0 · Mar 10, 2010, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

They dont suck , but they are not the omfgwtfpwn either . You ppl gotta stop thinking that not bad = suck , seriously.

Just remove some god damn casting times and shorten almost all recharges by 30% (at least in pve) and moti will be "ok" .

Well that's the problem. They don't suck, but they're not good either. Barely scraping in at average in fact. Massive recharge times, high energy costs (Leadership helps somewhat, but the 3 way split of skills as below.) don't help matters.

Most of the nerfs to motivation were due to PvP teams(?). However those nerfs were carried over to PvE making Motivation basically worthless. On top of that, Paragons tend to get stuck in a 3 way skill split. With Leadership needed to counter the high cost of the chants/shouts, spears to be able to do anything during the long recharges (skills probably only get used once per fight?) and then at least 9 in motivation.

When talking about Paragons all I see is people talking about PvE skills, as if using them makes up for the entire Motivation line being pretty useless. What if there were no PvE skills? Paragons would be like Mesmers (The situation for mesmers isn't as bad now, but that was mostly due to cry of pain..) and finding a PUG would be a real pain and an organised group wouldn't find any use for a Paragon with the current state of their skills that couldn't be fulfilled better by another profession.

I'd like to see the entire motivation line split into pvp/pve skills. The exact changes to skills? Well that's a somewhat pointless thing to discuss, since I'm doubtful anything will change. However it's clear that something should be done.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 10, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Wrong. IJAFW is a bloody impressive cond removal , you can use it with almost no points in motiv and use prots elite for something else useful , as long as any other cond removal skill in your prot hero by adding foul feast to your N .

If TPIY added 1..2..3 energy regen to all party members in earshot range it would be a "free" battery , overpowered.

They dont suck , but they are not the omfgwtfpwn either . You ppl gotta stop thinking that not bad = suck , seriously.

Just remove some god damn casting times and shorten almost all recharges by 30% ( at least in pve ) and moti will be "ok" .

I was referring to PvE, so with that in mind, RC says hi. Hell, a Paragon could slap on RC and be more impressive than IJAFW with NO points in Prot, because 10(+) healing is more useful than IMS in PvE

TPIY is pretty poor, but if it was buffed any more it'd be OP. The only real change I can see to it being something along the lines of HYAHHHHH!. Lasts 3 seconds, effect stacks up to three times(scaling with motivation). 3 seconds certainly doesn't leave much of a window to cover, so it's still fragile.

Even so, I'd much rather TPIY be changed in functionality to something more useful in general.

I still say reducing the range of chants and upping their potential overall (recharge, functionality, effect) is a pretty interesting way to go, and it makes sense, both logically and playability. Chanting is generally quieter then shouting, and it's more effective when your team is more bunched up, having the downside of being vulnerable to AoE, or else you'll have to move around to effect the frontline, and actually have to THINK about what you're doing.

Lanier · Mar 10, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

@L
the fact that most mesmer skills deal damage doesn't mean that they are a damaging class. chaos storm, various interrupts, energy denial skills, energy burning skills, shame... conditions induced by skills cause damage or degen... and there's a lot of degen which - although indirect - is damage. so, mesmer = damager? even if playing a mes as a damager is one's best option to use, it should be changed as mes wasn't designed to nuke.
i don't know all motivation skills by heart, but if it's true that most of them heal allies rather than give them various buffs and indirect defence, then something's wrong. the fact that devs gave paras some weak heals doesn't mean that fixing the class can be done by overbuffing them - rather by changing them completely into motivation, as we have enough healers.

I think I see what you are saying now. The thing is that, like you said, mesmers may not be good damagers but they do have viable or useable damage dealing builds. I want to see the same for paragons. I dont want them to be another monk but I do want them to have a viable or useable healing build.

Oh, and I do know all the motivation skills by heart since paragon was my first character and one of my most played chars. Although there are a few battery and contidion removal chants, most are healing related. Indirect defense and buffs are primarily centered in the leadership and command attribute lines.